This post is in answer to Magi and Gordon's comments on the previous post. It started getting long so I decided to make it a part of the Heaven series. I definatly recomend looking at they're comments before reading this post.
What's interesting about the New Earth is that everyone places it after the end of this one. It is what I did too, but, I have considered it already exsisting. The problem with this is that although God is not confined by time, we are.
Time losses it's grip on us in eternity but things still happen for us in a sequential order. We are not like God who is omnipresent. Omnipresence is the ability to be present in every place at any, and/or every, time. That is something none of us will ever be and/or able to do. Let's look at angels as an example.
Angels experience things in a sequential order. They watch this age unfolding. They watch the movements of time. "[The purpose is] that through the church the complicated, many-sided wisdom of God in all its infinite variety {and} innumerable aspects might now be made known to the angelic rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) in the heavenly sphere" (Amp.B. Epesians 3:10). "For it seems to me that God has made an exhibit of us... For we have become a spectacle to the world [a show in the world's amphitheater] with both men and angels [as spectators]" (Amp.B. 1 Corinthians 4:9).
I do believe there is day of judgment. My belief in that further solidifies my postition that there must be a temporary "heaven" and "hell". I firmly believe that everyone that is dead in Christ right now is indeed with Him. I also firmly believe that they are waiting. "[He planned] for the maturity of the times {and} the climax of the ages to unify all things {and} head them up {and} consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth" (Amp.B. Ephesians 1:10).
Those who are dead in Christ are waiting with Him for the maturity of the times here on good old planet earth, the climax of the ages, when God will unify everything. I believe that unification takes place at one point. At one time. In one place. To say that each of us immediately goto that place makes the judgment happen repeatedly or we sit and wait before the throne for everyone to either die or the "end times" to complete.
As an example of waiting for the "end times" to complete I submit these verses, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season" (Revelations 6:9-11). The only point I want to make out of that verse is that those slain were told to wait. Once again, let's not get into a discussion of the "end times". The point here is they were told to wait.
All of creation is unfolding towards a single event.
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Revelations 20:11-15).
In the fulness of time God brings all and all before Him. "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" (Romans 14:11). The dead in Christ come. The dead in hell come. There simply must be a temporary "heaven" and "hell". Once again, whether we are alive or dead everything happens in a sequential order for us. It appears to me that the Great White Throne Judgment must happen before the New Earth is created. The dead in Christ are with Jesus right now in paradise just like He said. It's just not theirs and it's not our final destination.
Which leads me to Luke 16:19-31. "The Talmud is a record of rabbinic discussions on Jewish law, Jewish ethics, customs, legends and stories, which Jewish tradition considers authoritative" (From Wikipedia). The Talmud teaches that there is a division in the after life. "Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22,23) refers to the custom of reclining on couches at the dining table, which was prevalent among the Jews, an arrangement which brought the head of one person almost into the bosom of the one who sat or reclined above him. To "be in Abraham's bosom" thus meant to enjoy happiness and rest (Matthew 8:11; Luke 16:23) at the banquet in Paradise. Abraham's bosom is said to be the waiting place for those who "lived by faith" in Yahweh, but died before the coming of Christ; sometime during the three days between the Crucifixion of Christ and His Resurrection, Jesus descended into the realm of the dead and retrieved those in Abraham's bosom" (From Wikipedia).
I believe Jesus did do exactly as described above. "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). I believe that Jesus told those in Abraham's bosom that He was the fulfilment of prophecy, that He was who they had been waiting for. I believe He took them with Him to.....I don't know....It's tricky. I do know why He took them though. I do know why they were waiting for Him.
Jesus took those in Abraham's bosom because He defeated death. What is death? It's a seperations from God. Those in Abraham's bosom although in "paradise" where still under law and still seperated from God. Grace had not yet come to them. They were "dead" in their sins. When Jesus came to them, Grace came to them, Salvation came to them.....The seperation ended and they went with Jesus. "Therefore He says, "When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men." (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the same also as He who ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Epesians 4:8-10).
This is further evidence that when we die we experience things sequentially. If the dead in Abraham's bosom coud have jumped forward to Jesus they would not have needed to be in Abraham's bosom. They would have gone straight to Jesus and then to the New Earth. It did not happen that way for them and it will not happen that way for us. There is a temporary "heaven" and "hell".
5 comments:
A couple of thoughts on Revelation.
The dead saints in Rev. 6:9-11 are not the dead saints of this age, but those who become believers during the Tribulation and are then martyred for their faith. In its context, this Scripture is in the Great Tribulation. I realize that this is in a way a discussion of "end times", but you cannot interpret a text without its context.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away... Rev. 21:1
This seems to indicate that there is indeed a heaven at this time. It will pass away because, like the first earth, it has been touched by sin.
This heaven is upward, Acts 1:9-11. Paul describes it as the "third heaven".
Saints will not appear at the Great White throne judgment of Rev. 20. Notice that those who are judged here are described as the "dead, small and great". By the time this occurs, all saints will have been resurrected to eternal life.
It is good that you are aware that the present heaven is only temporary, this will give you a better understanding of other aspects of what the Bible teaches about our future.
Keep up the good work. See you Monday evening.
Incidentally, I think you may be right about the new heaven and earth already existing. I believe it is possible that they are "under construction". I think when Jesus told His disciples in John 14 that He was going to prepare a place for them, He was possibly speaking of the new creation.
well written and thourougly answered. thank you. Ill have to read it again later to let it all sink in though.
this has been a very interesting post, I enjoyed it immensely, I enjoy reading about these things knowing we are so limited in our human thinking and one day when we see it clearly, we will all probably be amazed at what God has prepared for us. God Bless!
Gordon,
I thought about mentioning the Tribulation for the context of those verses but then there are people who do not believe in the Tribulation, so I didn't bring it up. I didn't think it hurt the point I was trying to make, that of waiting.
I realize that saints will not be at the Great White Throne Judgment but that is the one final and undisputable thing that must take place before the New Heavens and New Earth.
People that do not believe in the millennium kingdom will not believe in the judgment of the “sheep and the goats” or a “judgment of the nations” as is seen in Matthew 25:31-36. I also know people divide the judgments up. I think we are rewarded at this time. Other people say there is a second judgement that we get our rewards at. This why I say, "All of creation is unfolding towards a single event". This is undisputable. No matter if people divide the judements up into three, two, or just the final one.
I'm going to presenting what Jesus is prepairing in the next post.
Magi,
One day I will find time to read through your writings as you have so thoroughly done of mine. Thank you for your always encouraging comments.
Live, Love, Laugh,.....(such a great name) :-)
I am glad you enjoyed this series immensely. I very much enjoy your spin on daily living.
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