At the seminary extension classes I have been taking we have learned much about the importance of 1 John 5:7 and about the King James Version translation of it.
Not being satisfied with simply believing what I'm told I have been looking into this verse. Here is the verse from the King James bible.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7).
What we have learned is that many translations of the bible combine verse 7 with verse 8 and read like this....
" 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement" (N.I.V.)
" 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement" (N.A.S.B.)
Now, here is verse 7 and 8 together in the King James.
" 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one".
See the difference? I was pretty amazed when I found out my trusty N.A.S.B. had left out the only verse in the bible that definitively expresses the Trinity and so I have been looking into Greek around the web and giving myself a bit of a crash course in how Greek works. What have I discovered? It's all really confusing stuff about neuter nouns, a masculine participle, and more nouns. All that is dependent on what Greek manuscripts are being used.
There is the Byzantine text-type which is what the King James came from and then there is the Alexandrian text-type which pretty much everything else comes from. Youngs Literal Translation demonstrates the difference between the two best I think.
"7 because three are who are testifying 8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one."
I purposely left a part out. Young's Literal Translation follows the Alexandrian text-type in the form I have presented but Young provides the Byzantine text-type as italics so that it reads like this.
"7 because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these--the three--are one; 8 and three are who are testifying in the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one."
Young leaves out the three agreeing all together.
Everything I have just written lead me back to looking into the different text types. I have surfed all over the web reading both sides of the argument. The "King James Only" crowd and the other side which seems to be just about everyone else.
It's all pretty interesting stuff. It all solidifies my opinion that one should question everything!
16 comments:
You are on an important study here, Michael. It is important to know that over 90% of all extant Greek manuscripts contain I John 5:7 as it appears in the Byzantine text.
Michael, An evangelist by the name of Oliver B. Greene once said that going to school was mainly for the purpose of teaching us how to study. I am not inclosing that in quotations because I may not remember it exactly. I do not think he was wrong.
Thanks michael,
I'm a big fan of using more than one translation, but for simple difficulty of reading I offten neglect the KJV. I (as I assume you do) rely on my NASB as a "word for word" translation and use it with other "Dynamic equivolence" (thought for thought) translations.
Thanks for bring this little gem to my attention.
MDM
PS.
Im going to link to this post from one I just did about the trinity. There has been some pretty interesting descussion about the trinity in the blogworld of late.
Thanks Michael for sharing this, I am going to read this in my bible tonight, I recently bought a parallel bible so I could compare the verses and I have been amazed and blessed by it!
gordon,
are the Greek and Byzantine manuscripts different texts (as I believed they were)?
It was my understanding that the Byzantine texts are generally less reliable but, is the signifacance of you comment that this verse is also in the greek texts? Thus giving this translation of 1 John 5:7 more credibility.
live, love, laugh,
I believe that parallel bibles are the best advancment in scripture understanding and learning since 1611 when the Bible was first translated into English.
Good move.
MDM
Michael,
Good eye! This is verse that I've been wanting to dig into a bit more myself.
God bless,
Doug
Ok, so I have been surfing around for two weeks now reading various things.
Gordons comment on 90% of all extant Greek manuscripts prompted me to simply put that line in a search engine which lead me to this page, Bible Versions.
This reads like a book. Click on Introduction and begin learning the truth.
Gordon,
See Above.
Tim,
I like that qoute. I have always wondered about people who demand their pastors have degrees and such. Paul went to the school of the Holy Ghost and we see the results of that.
Magi,
I think the N.A.S.B. is a word for word translation. It word for word of the Alaxandrian Greek which I am finding out is corrupt. See link above.
Live, Love, Laugh,
I think a parallel bible is an awsome thing. I have never owned one but I have several translations that I pull out side by side.
I have always used the King James as the standard. The others might shed some light on something but I am seeing that everything should be checked back against a standard.
Doug,
Thanks for taking the time to come by and comment! I hope you come back and take the time to read through the link above.
EVERYONE!
Simply put Alexandrian and/or Byzantine in a search engine to find out more.
Michael, I was mistaken when I said Byzantine text. I meant to say Textus Receptus which is the text from which the KJV is translated. The Byzantine text preceded the TR.
michael,
thanks for the link I'll check it out more later. It seems however to be suggesting that the only true word of God is the KJV. something I dissagree with in spite of the KJV being a good translation. The KJV is not the only good english translation nor is it even the best.
MDM
Hey, I found your post via modern day magi.
James White has some good commentary on that specific passage. He has done a lot of research and knows his stuff.
Thanks for the link MXU.
It is hard to find information on the Comma Johanneum that isn't entirely one sided.
Magi,
The link I gave is truth as far as I can tell. King James or not the facts are laid out very nicely about the Greek text. That is my interest. I think once you read it you may change your mind about "The KJV is not the only good english translation nor is it even the best."
My main interest is Comma Johanneum. That is the term used for the verse that is the topic of this post. I have not come to an understanding that I feel comfortable with and so the research goes on.
Most people miss what this verse actually means. They think the 3 testify to 3 different people but the verse says something different.
And the 3 testify to JESUS CHRIST.
1. water and blood—Jesus Christ (1 John 5:6)
2. Spirit testifies to JESUS CHRIST
This is what they are in AGREEMENT with. JESUS CHRIST THE ONE TRUE LIVING GOD!
When the answer is simple it is from God
Puritan
I totaly agree with everything you just said.
I understand that with or without the questioned part of the verse it's pointing to Jesus.
What I want to understand is the history of the part of the verse in question. I want to understand it in a way I can say with full and complete confindence that whatever it is I find I firmly believe.
As of yet I have not found an argument that fully convinces me one way or the other.
Michael Pendleton:
Fair enough, In my opinion the KJV adds Father, Word, Spirit to support their trinity as the King Gymn had Catholic influences. (Still a great translation as with all word for words)
If people want to argue this I let them use the KJV translation then go back to the fundamental meaning of the verse. The Three testify to JESUS CHRIST NOT multiple people being God.
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